AG hopefuls spar on abortion

Gibson, Griffin agree on exceptions to ban, but little else

Candidates for Arkansas Attorney General Tim Griffin (left) and Jesse Gibson answer questions from the moderators during a debate at the Donald W. Reynolds Performance Hall on the University of Central Arkansas campus in Conway on Wednesday.
(Arkansas Democrat-Gazette/Stephen Swofford)
Candidates for Arkansas Attorney General Tim Griffin (left) and Jesse Gibson answer questions from the moderators during a debate at the Donald W. Reynolds Performance Hall on the University of Central Arkansas campus in Conway on Wednesday. (Arkansas Democrat-Gazette/Stephen Swofford)

CONWAY -- Republican attorney general candidate Tim Griffin and Democratic opponent Jessie Gibson agree there should be exceptions in the state's abortion ban for rape and incest victims, but the similarities end when it comes to the policy decisions surrounding the overturning of Roe v. Wade.

Griffin, Arkansas' lieutenant governor, and Gibson, a Little Rock attorney, faced off Wednesday at the Arkansas PBS debate on the campus of the University of Central Arkansas. They face each other in the Nov. 8 general election. Early voting begins Monday.

Griffin, 53, defeated Leon Jones Jr. in the Republican primary. Griffin originally announced he would run to succeed Gov. Asa Hutchinson but dropped out of the governor's race after Republican Sarah Huckabee Sanders -- a former press secretary for former President Donald Trump, and the daughter of former Gov. Mike Huckabee -- announced her candidacy for the state's top elected position.

Griffin said Wednesday he chose to run for attorney general because he loves public service.

"This is personal to me," he said. "If I were not serving in public office, I would still be extremely passionate and forward-leaning because I live here and I love my city and I love my state. I don't care what capacity I am in, I will always be that."

Gibson, 48, said he wants to be attorney general to serve those who are in need.

"There is no other office that touches more lives than the attorney general's office," he said. "Do you really want this job? Or do you just want some kind of role in government. My desire is to help the least of these. Not to find a landing spot. Not to find a second choice. My entire legal career has led to this moment."

Wednesday's debate covered questions about transgender surgery and the role of the office, among other things, but the main theme centered on the state's abortion ban and the effects it could have across Arkansas.

After the U.S. Supreme Court earlier this year overturned the landmark 1973 ruling in Roe v. Wade that legalized abortion across the nation, Arkansas Attorney General Leslie Rutledge implemented a 2019 "trigger law" that bans abortion in Arkansas except to save the life of the mother in a medical emergency.

Act 180 of 2019 was crafted to take effect when the state's attorney general certified that Roe had been overturned, returning to the state the authority to prohibit abortion.

"I will say as I travel this state from Bentonville to Lake Village, our archaic trigger law is front-of-mind for people all across the state and they are angry," Gibson said. "They are angry that we have some government-mandated forced pregnancy in cases of incest and rape. It's a barbaric law, and even our own governor who signed the law says now he doesn't like it."

Griffin said the Supreme Court was correct in its decision to overturn Roe v. Wade because it was based off law that wasn't in the Constitution.

"Look, just because you think something should exist doesn't mean it's in the Constitution. You just can't make stuff up," Griffin said. "Those who see the Constitution as this morphing, living document basically mean that as times change and as circumstances change, they can create things out of thin air. That is what was done with the right to privacy as it was laid out in the Roe case.

"It has been a long time coming. It should be with the states, and it's with the states now."

Gibson said if that is Griffin's philosophy when it comes to the Constitution, Arkansans should be concerned.

"The only thing I can say to the people of Arkansas is if this is the philosophy, then take cover, because with this philosophy all kinds of rights are under attack," Gibson said. "They will come after every right that we hold dear.

"I do believe that the original decision in Roe was founded on sound legal precedent. I do believe that it has become over the last 50 years deeply ingrained in our culture and the decisions women make. The only people who belong in that decision-making room are the woman, her doctor, and if she so chooses the pastor. Placing the government into that room making those decisions is wrong."

Griffin said Gibson missed a fundamental point with his argument.

"There are three people in the room, and one of them can't speak," Griffin said. "That is the problem with his view of the world. His view is as long as the mouth is shut then the baby is not a person.

"I disagree with him, and the great news is that most Arkansans totally disregard what he said."

Gibson said he believes Arkansans want women making these choices.

"Women have the right to their body autonomy," he said. "Women have the right to make these choices. It's a matter of health, and it's a matter of safety, and I will always protect that as your attorney general."

Both candidates have said they believe there should be an exception in the abortion ban for rape and incest, but Gibson expressed skepticism about Griffin's claim.

"He didn't do anything to stop it," Gibson said. "Now there are repercussions, and now he opposes it."

Griffin said Gibson doesn't understand the role of lieutenant governor.

"The lieutenant governor does not engage in the middle of the debate publicly," Griffin said. "You have to be a fair arbiter with the Democrats and the Republicans, and even factions within the Republican Party.

"I have always supported exceptions for rape and incest, but I didn't say I opposed the law. I simply said as attorney general I would defend whatever laws I have to defend. My personal preference in this area is an exception for rape and incest. There is some discussion about this amongst legislators, and I believe we will have more discussions when we have our session."

Gibson said the women of Arkansas don't have time to wait for another legislative session.

"The session doesn't start for several more months," he said. "How many women have to be put in impossible positions before we take action? This law will cause harm, and to just say we will look at this in the future is not leadership. That is passing the buck."

Griffin said he wasn't sure what his opponent expects him to do in the current situation.

"We all know the lieutenant governor can't call a special session because that is not one of the roles enumerated in the state constitution," he said. "So this will be taken up, I believe, but I am not a legislator, but I will defend the law in the role as attorney general."

The debate took a turn when candidates were asked if overturning Roe meant other rights, such as same-sex marriage and interracial marriage, might be under attack as well.

Gibson said many rights that are ingrained in our society are on the ballot if politicians are allowed to go after them.

"The questions Arkansans have to ask themselves is if that is the way we want to go as a state," he said. "Do we want to go back to the times where we didn't have interracial marriage? Back to these policies of the past? I don't think we do."

Griffin said issues such as interracial marriage and same-sex marriage are law and aren't in danger.

"I supported the idea that marriage was between a man and woman, but this set law," he said. "I don't know what interracial marriage has to do with this in particular. It doesn't have anything to do with this at all. I think that is trying to push some buttons in election year. So, no, I don't see it as a major issue."

Gibson countered by saying abortion was set law for 50 years.

"That is not being intellectually honest," Gibson said. "If you believe there is no right to privacy, then there are ways to challenge other cases. I believe there will be litigation. There has already been talks in state legislatures across the country. That is why I said to Arkansans to take cover."

Griffin said there is a distinction between the issues.

"There are some things that are settled law, and there are other things that were never based on law in the first place," he said.

MARIJUANA

Gibson said he supports the recreational marijuana amendment because it adds money to the state's budget and frees up law enforcement resources.

"There are 30 odd states out of 50 that have some sort of marijuana legalization, either medical or recreational," he said. "The train might not have left the station, but they are powering the coal on and the steam is pumping. ...It's an imperfect amendment, but I don't think we should make the perfect enemy of the good. I think it will be a net positive."

Griffin said he opposes the amendment and believes it will lead to more crime and make it more difficult to recruit industries to the state.

"If we are going to have a bunch of poets in Arkansas, it may not matter as much if we are all high," he said. "But if we want people doing high-tech jobs where they have got to pass drug tests, then we are going to have a really hard time recruiting industries if we are high on pot."

TRANSGENDER TRIAL

Griffin and Gibson also were questioned about the ongoing trial in Arkansas regarding the constitutionality of the state's ban on medical care for transgender teens.

Gibson described the case as political grandstanding and pointed to an interview that Rutledge had with Jon Stewart about the state's decision to ban gender-affirming care for trans youth as a reason why "political" decisions won't stand up to legal scrutiny.

"You can't go into court and talk about and make a political argument, or grandstand or talk about empty rhetoric," he said. "You got to come with facts. You got to come with evidence and testimony.

"The judge will make a decision based on facts and law, not policy. I don't think it will be supported."

Griffin said the state simply chose to protect minors from life-altering surgeries and treatments.

"We aren't banning transgender surgery or gender modifications and treatments for adults," he said. "We are saying that kids like mine, at 12 or 15, who wake up with a new personality every day, are growing and changing."

Gibson said it's important to talk to families of transgender youth to understand what actually goes on within the home.

"What he is talking about is surgery that is far down the chain of events," Gibson said. "There is counseling and hormone therapy. We don't just jump in and allow a minor to have surgery, and talking to their families has sometimes been life-saving. The suicide rate amongst transgenders is astronomical."


  photo  Candidates for Arkansas Attorney General Tim Griffin (left) and Jesse Gibson shake hands at the conclusion of a debate at the Donald W. Reynolds Performance Hall on the University of Central Arkansas campus in Conway on Wednesday. (Arkansas Democrat-Gazette/Stephen Swofford)
 
 


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