Skip Rutherford returns on this week’s episode. Rex and Skip discuss ways to promote growth in Arkansas’ rural communities — including broadband, health care and hospitality — after census data from the last decade showed shrinking populations in 53 of the state's 75 counties.
Rex Nelson: Hi everybody, and welcome to another edition of the Southern Fried podcast. I'm Rex Nelson of the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette. We thank you for joining us every couple of weeks for this Democrat-Gazette production. And you know, when we did the first one we had in the man I call Mr. Arkansas, Skip Rutherford, and I said, he's going to be a regular. So skip, you're our first returnee because we focused in on the Little Rock Metro area the last time, and I thought it was time to get out in rural Arkansas.
Skip Rutherford: Well Rex, thanks for having me back. I think this podcast is a great thing. You've had some great people on and I've enjoyed them, so I'm honored to be back. And yeah, you know, we're country boys at heart. We both grew up in small towns, and I think it's an important subject because it not only has enormous, rural-urban relations in Arkansas have enormous effect, but all across the country.
Rex Nelson: You know, I think those of us who follow demographic trends here in Arkansas had a sense of where things were going when we were going to get those 2020 census numbers. I guess the only surprise to me was just how dramatic the numbers were, as most parts of rural Arkansas really bled population. Northwest Arkansas remained one of the fastest growing areas of the country. The Little Rock Metropolitan area and what I now call the Jonesboro-Paragould corridor seeing solid growth. Those three areas, again Northwest Arkansas, Little Rock Metro and Jonesboro, Paragould, really the only growth engines in Arkansas. And I think that's probably going to be true for years to come. To break a little of that down: Benton and Washington counties alone grew by 105,800 people during that decade. Benton County 28.5%, growth Washington County 21.1% growth. Fayetteville passes Fort Smith as the state's second largest city. Jonesboro grows 16.8%. Paragould grows 13.1%. The six-county Little Rock Metro area grows 6.9%. Pulaski County still the state's largest county, population-wise, 4.3%. Faulkner County, Saline County, solid growth: Saline County 15.2% Faulkner County 9.1% Little Rock passes the 200,000 mark for the first time, with a growth rate of 4.7%. Growth rates of 3.7% for North Little Rock, 8.9% for Conway. We talked about a little of that the last time. Here we go, though. Of the state's 75 counties, 53 of the 75 lost population. Phillips County, and you and I love the history of the Helena area and going over there in the blues history, and the food history. Helena, in Phillips County. Phillips County falls from 21,700 to 16,500. That's a 23.8% drop in just ten years. One in every four people. Gone. County seat of Helena, a 22.5% decline. Now, Delta population losses not confined to Phillips County. St Francis County loses 18.3%, Lee County loses 17.5%, Monroe County loses 16.6%, Woodruff County loses 13.7%. Chicot County loses 13.5%. Not confined to the Delta, either. Other parts of South Arkansas: Dallas County loses 20.1%, Lafayette County loses 17.5%. Ouachita County with Camden loses 13.3% of its population. Jefferson County, with Pine Bluff, and neighboring Cleveland County each lose 13.1%. So we'll start with the easy question. Where do you see rural Arkansas going in the next decade?
Skip Rutherford: Well other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how'd you like the play? You know, I mean, the news is not good. And I think, Rex, you've laid it out very correctly and you've predicted this for a long time, and the 2020 census confirmed this: Arkansas now has three major regional destinations.
Rex Nelson: We have always thought of ourselves as a rural state because we were. You and I grew up in a rural state. We're becoming rapidly urbanized.
Skip Rutherford: That's right. We're becoming rapidly urbanized, and we have three major urban regions. And you've outlined them. And that's Northwest, that's Central, and that's the Jonesboro-Paragould corridor. And all of those areas, some doing better than others, but all doing well. I mean, you know, when you have 53 of the 75 counties that lose population, most of the 22 are in one of those three regions.
Rex Nelson: That's right.
Skip Rutherford: When you look at it, Rex, the southernmost county in Arkansas that gained population, and it was 0.3%, was Grant County.
Rex Nelson: Wow. And that’s considered part of the Little Rock Metro, most of those are people driving into Little Rock to work.
Skip Rutherford: Malvern, Sheridan. But when you think of, put it in that perspective, as the southern point of growth that leaves a lot of decline in South Arkansas. Now, and we'll go into this, but one of the things I want to raise is you and I both care about the Delta. You worked in the Delta. I grew up in the Delta. The Delta gets a lot of attention in terms of decline. I think we have to look very carefully at what's happened in South Arkansas.
Rex Nelson: Oh, yeah. And I tell people that I say that it's not just the Delta. Go to Southwest Arkansas and drive through Stamps. Drive through Lewisville in Lafayette County and look at all the empty buildings downtown.
Skip Rutherford: So I want to ask you a question: Do you think there's a possibility of a fourth regional urban area? Because when you look at those numbers, El Dorado has lost population, Pine Bluff has lost population. Texarkana has lost population. Where is the next growth region or is there one?
Rex Nelson: I think if there's going to be one, if you take contiguous counties and consider it a region — and you know, I'm biased in this, Skip — but I think the one with the best chance is that triangle of Hot Springs, Malvern and Arkadelphia. Hot Springs obviously has the natural attributes of being a national park, being the state's top tourism destination. Some really potential exciting things happening there. On the day we're taping this, I'm about to head to Hot Springs to speak to the Rotary Club. In an era when higher education is going to be more and more important, Arkadelphia, obviously, with two 4-year universities there. Only other city that can claim- cities that can claim that are Conway and Little Rock. So the only place in South Arkansas that has two 4-year institutions. And then you go over to Malvern and you've got a 2-year institution there. You take the 2-year institution in Hot Springs. And so in that triangle, you actually have four institutions of higher learning, which I think could lead to something exciting happening in that region. That's speculation on my part. But if I were to pick one, that's where I'd pick.
Skip Rutherford: And I think that's a pretty good analysis. I keep looking and thinking, can El Dorado make it? Because a lot of private investment and a lot of hope there in El Dorado. And I look at El Dorado, and I think — and Texarkana, with Hope being close by — can they make it? But the interesting thing about this is that creating another regional area is going to be a challenge. But when you look at the numbers, Rex, from 1960, which was the last decade, Arkansas lost population.
Rex Nelson: That's right. We've been gaining as a state since then. Most of my lifetime.
Skip Rutherford: Yeah. In 1960, that was the last decade. Fifty-seven percent of Arkansans in 1960 lived in rural areas. In 2020, it's 43%. It's continuing. It's a major shift. And the other thing about 1960 worth noting because you brought up Bentonville and Fayetteville. Arkansas, in 2020 only gained 95,000 people. As a state, we only grew 3.3%. Well below the national average as a state. Had it not been for the 100,000 population gains in Benton and Washington counties, Arkansas would have lost population.
Rex Nelson: Well, one of our neighbors, Mississippi, did lose population over the decade, one of only three states in the country actually to lose population over the entire decade.
Skip Rutherford: We came close. We were just plus 95,000. And when you study, the people in Bentonville say 60% of the growth in Bentonville is from people who move in from out of state. So what I see happening is what can we do about rural America? I agree, communities like Arkadelphia with college towns have hope. But when you're looking at some of these communities, what can we do? And this is where you get in and where I get into things like, we got to expedite broadband. We've got to give people a reason to live and stay in rural America.
Rex Nelson: Absolutely critical.
Skip Rutherford: If I were still dean of the Clinton School, that would be one of my projects I'd be working on. But I would also, my first speaker I would invite in would be the head of Airbnb. Because Airbnb provides- communities, little small towns can't build hotels, but they've got some great homes that could be B-and-B's, and they can bring people there. And people are taking shorter vacations. I think Airbnb is an opportunity for small towns.
Rex Nelson: I'm looking, Skip — you're preaching to the choir — at a column I wrote back on Sunday, September 5th, Labor Day weekend, about this very subject, and I broke out some bullet items that I thought that communities across Arkansas should focus on, and one of those bullet items is emphasized broadband development. And I wrote: "Broadband is to rural Arkansas in the 21st century what electricity was in the 20th century; the difference between having a chance to make a living where you want to live or having to move." And I truly believe that. I mean, we read history. You and I talk to our parents. We knew what a big thing. In the 20th century, getting electricity was in to rural Arkansas. We formed the REA, we formed electric cooperatives. We made it happen. And I think broadband is every bit as important now in the knowledge-based economy.
Skip Rutherford: I totally agree, and I also think it's the opportunity to keep people home and to stay home. I also believe that again, I'm back to my Airbnb thing because I believe, you know, if people come to a little town like, I mean, Stuttgart's got motels, but let's let's say they come to Marion to look at the at the Sultana Museum, or they go to Cave City to try to get in the in the cave. My thought is, if there's a neat Airbnb in a town, then all of a sudden you have created, you've helped make your town a destination. And you don't have to build. You don't have to put a Holiday Inn. The Airbnb movement, to me, the pandemic has excited that movement because people can work in Little Rock, can work anywhere. You can have your office at the Democrat-Gazette, but you could travel Arkansas and stay in Airbnbs and still be on your job.
Rex Nelson: Yeah. You know, right there with that when I talk about the broadband. The other thing that is right up there and every time I speak in a town and they say, Is there a magic bullet? I've said, there's not one, but as close as you can get is broadband. And the other thing, make your local school district as good as it possibly can be. That is how you set yourself apart. I can point to examples, as can you, around Arkansas. Let's go to the Delta. Let's go to an area that's generally bleeding population. I'm going to point to an example of Wynne, Arkansas. Wynne sits on Crowley's Ridge, of course, but Delta on either side. Wynne takes great pride in its school district. It's got a very good school district and Wynne's doing just fine these days, Skip. That's one example I use.
Skip Rutherford: Yeah. Let me point to another one. Tuckerman, where people from all over the county and region come to the Tuckerman schools because they take pride in their school district. You're exactly right. And look, I know there's this push of making the schools great. Then we may have to consolidate to make schools great. I'm of the belief that consolidation, yeah, in some cases it is essential. I agree. But goodness gracious. I think of back, you know, the small little towns, what the athletic programs, what the school cafeterias mean to the community of life in these small little towns. The thing I'd like to see done for rural America, Rex, is these towns, the small towns that have hospitals. We've got to keep them there. Helena tries, keeping hard, trying to keep that hospital there. Monticello. But the other thing I would like to see, and there's a lot of politics involved.
Rex Nelson: De Queen's actually building a new hospital, which is rare in a small town. I wrote about that recently.
Skip Rutherford: And what a great job Steve Cole and others are doing down there on economic. What a great job. The other thing I'd like to see — and there's politics involved — is I'd love to see and I'm crosswise with the medical association here, but I'd love to see telemedicine in every school in Arkansas. Every school nurse. So that kids have access to telemedicine. The pandemic has increased the use of telemedicine. We're not going to be able to, you and I can talk about it all we want, we're not going to be able to get doctors and nurses and hospitals all over this state. But we can get broadband. And we can have that child in that school nurse office talking to a professional at Arkansas Children's Hospital. And so I think telemedicine is another big thing to help rural Arkansas.
Rex Nelson: Oh, I could not agree more on that. Another thing back on that Labor Day weekend column I was talking about when I broke out my bullet points. Another thing that I put down — and I think this is just critical — is A: Elect the best public officials possible. And B, and that goes right along with A: establish leadership development programs. You and I have spoken to a lot of leadership programs around the state, but they're just crucial. Of those that are going to stay there you have got to develop those young people, convince them of how important community service is through leadership programs, then I think you have to convince them to run for public office. Skip, we have a hard time getting people to run anymore and I can see why when people on school boards get screamed at and get nasty emails and phone calls in the middle of the night. But we need good people on our school boards. We need more good people on our county quorum courts. We need more good people in our city councils and frankly, we need a better quality of state legislator in this state.
Skip Rutherford: Rex, public service is a noble calling and obviously I'm very prejudiced in this area.
Rex Nelson: Yeah, just retired as the dean of the Clinton School of Public Service, the only one in the country.
Skip Rutherford: Yeah, so I couldn't agree with you more in terms of encouraging people to get involved not only in elective office, but in community service. And so I think what we have to do as policymakers, we've got to look at the things like the visionaries did about getting electricity, the REA program. I mean, what a visionary thing that was. And what a political battle that was. We've got to get broadband everywhere and to give the governor credit, he's trying to do that. That's one thing. I gave him credit. We've got to get that. I think we got to break down that barrier of telemedicine. Every kid ought to be able to see a doctor regardless of whether there's a provider within 50 minutes. The school ought to be able to access telemedicine to UAMS and Children's and others. We can improve rural health care with telemedicine. That's a no brainer. I mean, we just ought to do it. And I understand the politics on the other side. The other thing that I think has been done and you deserve some credit for this because you write about it and you talk about it and you know, you don't talk about everything that's wrong. You talk about good things that are happening in these places. But we're getting ready. We have seen some great infusion into rural areas in our state parks. You and I went through Jacksonport together.
Rex Nelson: Oh yeah. And I was just recently back to speak to the Jackson County Historical Society.
Skip Rutherford: At Jacksonport?
Rex Nelson: Yeah, and that visitor center. I mean, it is truly world class architecture.
Skip Rutherford: It is absolutely wonderful in rural Arkansas. And when you look at a lot of our state parks, in fact, the vast majority of them, are on or around small towns. And the investment that we've been able to do through the one-eighth cent that has provided that for state parks. As you say, the Jackson County Historical Society, what a wonderful place for a rural area to have a meeting place and a gathering place. Well, you look at Mount Magazine, you look at Wilhelmina, you look at DeGray. I mean, we could just go down the list of places. You know, the diamond in Murfreesboro, I mean, our state parks are a big part of rural existence and development.
Rex Nelson: Absolutely. I thank you, and I am writing a column next month that will run, noting that November marks the 25th anniversary of, in my opinion. And again, I'm biased because I worked on it. I was in the governor's office.
Skip Rutherford: I worked on it, too, in the private sector.
Rex Nelson: And you worked on it. This is the passage of what became Amendment 75 to the Arkansas Constitution. We taxed ourselves one eighth of a cent. And Skip, we have gone from a state park system — and we've got 52 of them — a state park system where we were literally holding things up with duct tape at that point to what I believe to be — and I've talked to people who travel a lot, and they agree with me — probably the finest state parks system in America, now.
Skip Rutherford: Well, and-
Rex Nelson: Thanks to Amendment 75 and the millions of dollars that produces.
Skip Rutherford: Well, and the leadership of then-Governor and Mrs. Huckabee. The leadership of who I think is one of Arkansas' unsung heroes, and that's the state parks director, long time, Richard Davies.
Rex Nelson: Yeah, you had Davies then. Of course, Game and Fish was a part of that. Steve Wilson, all those folks.
Skip Rutherford: Oh yeah, Steve Wilson, Keep Arkansas Beautiful. You had, and then you got people like Greg Butz and Joe David Rice and others that were very involved in it. But the point: Rural Arkansas is a winner. I mean, Jacksonport is a winner. And so one of the ways we can invest is to promote our parks, promote our tourism. That gets me back to my Airbnb thing. I've struggled for years. I used to say, I remember telling my friend the late Stanley Reed, I'd go visit him in Marianna and we'd drive around and and I would say: If somebody came over here looking for economic development, where would they stay? Well, there wasn't a nice hotel or anything. But now there could be a nice Airbnb. This concept is catching on and people can come in and stay and look. So I think we, I think our role is I don't know whether we can stem the population flow out of Phillips County. People do their own thing. But what we can do is make sure Phillips County has broadband, has telemedicine, has good places for people to stay, has local culture, has parks. That's what we can do.
Rex Nelson: Yeah. And I go back to a line I used during my four years with the Delta Regional Authority, Skip. And that was: You might not necessarily become bigger, but you can become better. Because, you know, for decades, our whole concept of economic development was: bigger is better. We got to go get that plant that brings 300, 400 jobs to town. That's better. And bigger is not always better. You can become better without becoming bigger. You can make your schools better. You can make your hospital better. You can focus on downtown and fill up those empty buildings. downtown. You can clean up empty lots. I could go on and on.
Skip Rutherford: Well, yeah, and you also have to look at things beyond just economic development. My good friend and college classmate, your friend. No one has done a better job on economic development in Arkansas, in my opinion, than Clif Chitwood in Blytheville and Mississippi County. That guy is, you know,
Rex Nelson: Becoming the steel-making center of America, frankly.
Skip Rutherford: That's right, and he's just done-
Rex Nelson: Potential of two more plants coming up there, Skip.
Skip Rutherford: You know what, Clif has done an extraordinary job and is working now on the potential of a museum on the airbase there. And there's a lot. But here's the problem: Blytheville has trouble getting people to live there. It's not the jobs. So our old economic development strategy is: if the jobs people will come. That used to be the case. Blytheville is creating good-paying jobs. There'd be counties all over the country that would love to have what the Clif Chitwood group is doing in Mississippi County. So you've got to go to quality of life issues. You've got to go beyond that. You got to go to parks and trails and restaurants and barbecue joints and dairy queens and diners and promoting them. I mean, you've got that's where the personality of these towns, Jones Barbecue is a personality. It's an icon.
Rex Nelson: Draws now people to Marianna from literally all over the country, Skip.
Skip Rutherford: You know, you and I have talked with our mutual friend, John Beller in Cave City, who's done an extraordinary job trying to get the Cave City cave open to bring people back to visit that cave.
Rex Nelson: And maybe that tourist core to joining it, too, so I could spend the night.
Skip Rutherford: Yeah, but I'm just saying that that's where small towns, we got to help them on the big picture. Broadband, telemedicine, state parks, all that stuff. But they have to help themselves on personality, the quality of life issues. What Bubba Lloyd's doing in Jasper with his store.
Rex Nelson: Yeah, downtown Jasper.
Skip Rutherford: You know, there are some good examples out there. Wilson. And some have more resources than others. But these small towns have got to maximize and and create the quality of life issues because Blytheville is the town that has now got my attention. Because I've always thought if we could just get jobs, this would be, well, that's not the case. We got to have jobs, but we've got to have quality of life. And Blytheville's the example of what can we do? How do you enhance rural America quality of life? And one of the examples I think you and I can look at, a town we both love and both have connections to. One of the few towns in rural America that's in the Delta that gained population — small, but gained — is our beloved town of Newport. It's a great economic development. Jon Chadwell and group are doing a great job, but the two year college is doing a great job. The White River.
Rex Nelson: The Rock and Roll Highway 67 Museum, which they're looking at expanding.
Skip Rutherford: That's exactly right. You've got the Delta Visual Arts.
Rex Nelson: The distillery in the old post office we went to.
Skip Rutherford: What about the arts festival? The Delta Arts Festival. They're creating a personality and a quality of life. Other towns have to do that.
Rex Nelson: When I was with Delta Regional Authority, we hired a consultant out of Austin and did this economic survey. Of course, we weren't just in Arkansas. We were in parts of eight states. But rural areas, all losing population, all struggling a bit, and they came up with a term called Critical Mass Communities. And what these are is these places that are going to do just fine, even as the rural areas around them lose population. Because they become the place where people go. They go there to maybe go to a two-year community college. They go to the shop and maybe a Walmart Supercenter. They go there because there's a hospital there. And so what I tell people when I go out is you need to bring your business and civic leadership together and really define what's going to make us a critical mass community and how do we become one and stay one? What are our existing strengths? How do we play to them? And I think that's what you're saying, Skip. And the fact is, we have too many Arkansas communities where people are just kind of shrugging and saying, Well, everybody's leaving. We don't know what to do. You've got to have that convening that talking that strategic planning process.
Skip Rutherford: I agree. And again, I think there's some great success stories out there. And I go back, because I've spent a lot of time, you and I have spent, we have spent a lot of time traveling to rural Arkansas visiting and talking about this. You've hit it right. Broadband is rural electricity. We gotta have it. We got to have good, high quality. Everybody in Arkansas deserves it. Everybody ought to be able to get it. Have access to it. I expand that by saying, let's do telemedicine for kids. That way, young families can come there and not feel like they don't have medical care for their kids. Then let's develop a local leadership group leadership training. Then let's develop an Airbnb in a town that people- Marion has one, and there are other places that have cool Airbnbs that you're not ever going to get a Holiday Inn to come there. Then let's develop a Jones Barbecue personality. It may be that Dairy Queen that Cat writes about. It may be a craftsman. But there are some personalities out there in rural Arkansas. We have got to put the infrastructure in place. Right now, we don't have enough broadband to say to somebody, you need to move to a small town. Because we are so dependent on technology. It would be like saying we don't have electricity here and you would say, "What? You don't have electricity? Well, why would I live there?" Or, we don't have running water or we don't have telephone service. Broadband is where we are. We gotta get it. That will level at least the playing field. Right now, Rex, it is an urban, uneven playing field.
Rex Nelson: And with all the criticisms I could make and there are a lot of them. One thing in our Legislature has done, and the governor has provided leadership on this, is we have focused a lot of this one-time money that we're getting in the wake of the pandemic to expanding broadband. And so I tip my hat to the Legislature on that.
Skip Rutherford: I agree with that. And I think they understand it because many of them live in small towns, in rural areas. I think they get it. I think, certainly think the governor gets it. But I think it needs to be a high priority where Arkansas can basically say you can live in Grubbs or you can live in Foreman and you have got absolutely high-quality internet service.
Rex Nelson: It's going to be critical. It is going to be critical going forward. Skip, out of time. It always goes fast.
Skip Rutherford: Well, we'll do it again. And again, I'm not giving up on rural Arkansas. I do want to emphasize what you've done is that we as a state have to put the basics there.
Rex Nelson: Yes, absolutely we do.
Skip Rutherford: And then we need to help rural Arkansas help itself.
Rex Nelson: We owe that much to these communities. We owe them broadband. We owe them good public schools.
Skip Rutherford: We owe them good public schools. And I would say we owe them health care.
Rex Nelson: Absolutely. Skip Rutherford, our guest. I'm Rex Nelson from the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette. Thank you for joining us for another edition of the Southern Fried Podcast.